Curse

delfin42 · Nov 11, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

Ah, ok, I see. You wan't PvE to be just like PvP. FFS, go play PvP if you want gameplay like that. PvE isn't supposed to be identical to PvP.

And it won't be, even now. Even with the "upgrade" to enemy AI, they will not coordinate anywhere _near_ how humans can coordinate. PvE enemies don't chat like humans. They don't focus fire like humans. They don't come in with specific builds designed to counter specific other builds like humans. They don't prioritize targets like humans. They don't run away or regroup and restrategize if a battle is not going well. They don't use terrain to their advantage well. They're BOTS, and human imagination and craftiness will consistently surpass their AI.

Making PvE AIs a bit less blatantly self-destructive is not the end of the world, Chicken Littles in this thread aside.

Thailii Monkey · Nov 11, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

And it won't be, even now. Even with the "upgrade" to enemy AI, they will not coordinate anywhere _near_ how humans can coordinate. PvE enemies don't chat like humans. They don't focus fire like humans. They don't come in with specific builds designed to counter specific other builds like humans. They don't prioritize targets like humans. They don't run away or regroup and restrategize if a battle is not going well. They don't use terrain to their advantage well. They're BOTS, and human imagination and craftiness will consistently surpass their AI.

Making PvE AIs a bit less blatantly self-destructive is not the end of the world, Chicken Littles in this thread aside.

Well Said

entropy · Nov 11, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

If anet is going to make it so that I have to play a certain build to be even remotely useful well then this game is gone for me and I just won't stick around for Chapter II.

bearcatflex · Nov 11, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Don't tell me to run a different build. I put hours into my fire ele, buying the good equipment, getting all the skills, etc.

For me, the point is not just the fact that fire damage has been modified so radically, it's that - when will it stop?

They will most certainly do to air/earth/water that they did to fire. And if any other primary class build becomes too powerful, that will beat down.

If that trend continues, how will we actually be able to kill anything?

My 2 cents.......

id0l · Nov 11, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

No offense intended but it's by no means more intelligent or less predictable. Monsters are still stupid, but in a different way.

Frog beat me to it.

Predictable still because you know they are going to run like poonanies.
Stupid because, well, they run.

Think about this, too: Why would higher-level monsters (usually they are higher level than you, as you progress through the game), which normally outnumber you, and have infinite energy - want to run from you anyway?

Weazzol · Nov 11, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I'll just say that I'm 50/50 for and against this patch for various reasons, some already stated...

My main question is that I see some say 'start using slowing effect spells/skills' and a lot point to Water, but won't the minute you use Fire spells take away the effect the Water spells give? Seems like I read that somewhere.

quickmonty · Nov 11, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

It has been my experience that when a game upgrade states "improved AI" it usually means ....... game cheats more.

Guild Wars Chapter II WARNING: Not for casual PvE players!

scott_da_ele · Nov 11, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

You “noobs” need to learn a new build!

With the stroke of the Enter key, ANet put a stop (more of a damper) to those awful fire nukers and their high-powered AoE attacks. The reign (err…shower) of terror in the farming lands was silenced for mere minutes as people drained the Rune Traders of their Superior Air, Water and Earth runes. But in the end (a whole 10 minutes), farming resumed in the usual places with the usual groups and at the usual pace. Once again proving you cannot stop the only thing people have left to do in this game.

People spamming “you noobs need to learn a new build” quickly boiled my blood as I so badly wanted to put my hard earned Rago’s Flame Staff through the face of their smug avatar. How dare they call me a noob? I have played every primary type of character. I have my four favorite level 20’s maxed and “pimped out” with Draknor’s armor and green weapons with every dot on the map (as many of us do). Not into getting 15k.

I also have FOURTY-SEVEN (47!!!) unused skill points and nearly every single skill for both the primary and secondary classes on my favorite character (a monk). Although this probably pales in comparison with other people, it moves me to the point of this letter. WHAT THE HECK AM I GOING TO DO WITH THEM? And what has been the point of actually getting them?

Before the time of the Sorrow’s Furnace area, I farmed and helped out guildmates (and still do) earn their next levels. With the addition of SF, I was contented with helping the NPC’s in their quests deep inside the Furnace. It was fun, it was fresh, and it was like…….playing a game again. But within weeks, the “LFG SF Quests” or “LFG for Defend this or that” quickly changed to “LFG Farming – Tanks, Echo Nukers and Monks needed.”

You want to stop me from farming, GIVE ME SOMETHING TO DO! Let me become level 30, 40, 100. The cat-and-mouse game of squelching a particular build will continue. It will ultimately lead to increased difficulty of the game simply because we won’t be able to kill anything efficiently. Or at least damper farming until PEOPLE HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO DO! But now, by the time we finally will have something to do, we won’t be able to stop the enemies from sending us back to the outpost.

What Anet has done (and will continue to do) is simply kill the fresh, new player from having fun with a given build. They could have easily let the game go until the expansion (if one is even in the works). I would pay $35 to $50 to get that feeling I had when playing the game the first time through again. But now, I am going to be getting the feeling of a fresh new game by buying……a new game. Maybe $14.99 a month will buy some competent programmers that actually studied past MMORPG’s and provide their players with a compelling game world. I was going to buy a second copy of GW so I could have all the character types but who knows which build is going to be crushed and when, ending months of my (virtual) blood, sweat and tears questing, farming, and having fun building a character the WAY I WANT.

The graphics are good, the first time through story was good and the additions were refreshing, but now we are stuck with the way you (ANet) have led us…...bored and with seemingly useless character builds. And no, I don’t get into PvP because I would rather play BF2.

Thank you for reading this or at least parts of it. I will not recommend this game to anyone. And by the way…...I QUIT!!!

P.S. I know we can slow the enemy down and nuke, but it is going to take forever to kill the badies on the wings of the areas that are choke points in the game (ex. Thunderhead Keep when you breach the top wall half way through or Abbadon’s Mouth with Jaded Bows and Mursaat on the wings near the door with a Seal).

delfin42 · Nov 11, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

If anet is going to make it so that I have to play a certain build to be even remotely useful well then this game is gone for me and I just won't stick around for Chapter II.

Which specific single Ele build is it that you feel compelled to play to be remotely useful?

An Air Spike build?
An Earth Ward build?
A Water Snare build?
An Air/Earth combo based around knockdown?
A Water/Earth combo that sets wards, blinds, weakens and slows enemies?
An anything/Fire combo that lets you use Lava Font, Flame Burst et al. to keep melee enemies away while you cast from your main attribute?
Combining Ele spells with secondary skills in creative ways?

I forget, which one of those is the useful one again?

Santanus_Perro · Nov 11, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

It has been my experience that when a game upgrade states "improved AI" it usually means ....... game cheats more.

Guild Wars Chapter II WARNING: Not for casual PvE players!

A game can cheat? A non-living, programmed entity can cheat? And I am the definition of a casual player. I have put in, with all my toons, a little under 300 hours of play since the game came out. My guess that is right smack dab in the middle of how often people play. I am the casual player and I love the update. Challenge is good. Makes a group use more tactics in going FTW.

entropy · Nov 11, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

Which specific single Ele build is it that you feel compelled to play to be remotely useful?

An Air Spike build?
An Earth Ward build?
A Water Snare build?
An Air/Earth combo based around knockdown?
A Water/Earth combo that sets wards, blinds, weakens and slows enemies?
An anything/Fire combo that lets you use Lava Font, Flame Burst et al. to keep melee enemies away while you cast from your main attribute?
Combining Ele spells with secondary skills in creative ways?

I forget, which one of those is the useful one again?

umm I like to stick to one class but thats just me. Earth warder is not NEEDED jst like necro's and mesmers in PvE. They are helpful but not a neccesity. Later on in the game its becomes more apperent but still they are not always needed. Call me ignorant to waht they can do but its how the game works. In PvP they are essential. My first character was a necro. I play mesmer for PvP almost always. The simple fact is that their use in PvE is limited. Air spike YAY I hit the boss for 28 dmg with my lightning orb thats just UBER. Water snare great I mean I do pathetic damage and it takes longer. The simple fact is that the AI is not smart therfore you don't need the level of competition as in PvP. If you want to make it PvP then I guess I'll quit too. When I do PvE I expect something. When I do PvP I want to be challenged. PvE has always been a drag but they just made it worse. And yes I have hit a boss for 28 with my fricking lightning orb.

Khanoute · Nov 11, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

Cheers anet, great update.

Quoted for truth.

I didn't even try to read all those farmer's complains. This update makes the game more challenging and more fun to play, that's all I can see. I hope they will work on improving AI mobs further.
Come on, you would really expect your monk boss to stay 10 seconds under your maelstrom, keeping getting interrupted? Bring a mesmer or a ranger to do the "dirty" job.
When you fight against lvl 24 ice imps, you obviously move away from their aoe casting (otherwise you should reconsider your tactics). Now they do the same, fair game.

We all know that AOE casting used to be a CHEAP way to do tons of damage. But does it really work in pvp? Not really, everyone will spread apart the second a meteor shower is casted. And this is the purpose of those aoe skills : causing battlefield mayhem and breaking other team's formation. Those spells are still useful to cast but not in the way we used to know.

I can't understand why people look for an UNBALANCED game where AI mobs doesn't even stand a chance against a not-too-dumb human pug.
If only mobs AI had better skills and fighting tactics, pve could be a lot funnier to play. Ever dreamed of fighting a 8-monster mobs using top guild build?

As an ele, I'm not a "Echo M3teAr Nuk3rZ" since the early days and I'm glad Anet encouraging people to try new attribute lines.

More diversity, less dumbness. Keep up the good work.

entropy · Nov 11, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santanus_Perro

A game can cheat? A non-living, programmed entity can cheat? And I am the definition of a casual player. I have put in, with all my toons, a little under 300 hours of play since the game came out. My guess that is right smack dab in the middle of how often people play. I am the casual player and I love the update. Challenge is good. Makes a group use more tactics in going FTW.

Yes games can cheat. I mean in Civ I my 3 tanks are beaten by their dated swordsmen Oh yeah!!!

Loralai · Nov 11, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

Which specific single Ele build is it that you feel compelled to play to be remotely useful?

An Air Spike build?
An Earth Ward build?
A Water Snare build?
An Air/Earth combo based around knockdown?
A Water/Earth combo that sets wards, blinds, weakens and slows enemies?
An anything/Fire combo that lets you use Lava Font, Flame Burst et al. to keep melee enemies away while you cast from your main attribute?
Combining Ele spells with secondary skills in creative ways?

I forget, which one of those is the useful one again?

I see your point but what I don't understand is what the big problem is with people whose profession of choice is straight fire. They paid their money like everyone else, they choose their skills from the same list that every other elemental gets, what's wrong with them choosing fire? So what if it's not highly creative, their money...their choice.

Valdis · Nov 11, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by domino69

like i said, if you want to use collectors, knock yourself out

so you mean the collectors ascalon bow (long bow version) with a perfect sundering and fortitude mod is better than a perfect Sundering Eternal Bow of Fortitude?

lmao...they're both long bows...except one looooks so much hotter...

you my friend dont know your bows...a long bow is a long bow...google it...

Actually they both have the same attack rate:
A Longbow has a longer range
A Eternal Bow has shorter flight time (amount of time to get to the target)

entropy · Nov 11, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

me button smashing?? are you kidding me. I do pvp and that's what I love but saying that this has made the challenge harder or for the better is idiotic. As stated before making balthazars aura something that makes you INVULNERABLE to melee based opponents for 10-12 secs is idiotic.

purecash123 · Nov 11, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Good thing I was prepared a long time ago...
My ele is set with all skills and near perf modded collectors 20/20 staves for each of my attribute lines =)
...I wonder what will be the future price of Flint's Fleshcleaver....

GWGuru · Nov 11, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott_da_ele

You “noobs” need to learn a new build!

With the stroke of the Enter key, ANet put a stop (more of a damper) to those awful fire nukers and their high-powered AoE attacks. The reign (err…shower) of terror in the farming lands was silenced for mere minutes as people drained the Rune Traders of their Superior Air, Water and Earth runes. But in the end (a whole 10 minutes), farming resumed in the usual places with the usual groups and at the usual pace. Once again proving you cannot stop the only thing people have left to do in this game.

People spamming “you noobs need to learn a new build” quickly boiled my blood as I so badly wanted to put my hard earned Rago’s Flame Staff through the face of their smug avatar. How dare they call me a noob? I have played every primary type of character. I have my four favorite level 20’s maxed and “pimped out” with Draknor’s armor and green weapons with every dot on the map (as many of us do). Not into getting 15k.

I also have FOURTY-SEVEN (47!!!) unused skill points and nearly every single skill for both the primary and secondary classes on my favorite character (a monk). Although this probably pales in comparison with other people, it moves me to the point of this letter. WHAT THE HECK AM I GOING TO DO WITH THEM? And what has been the point of actually getting them?

Before the time of the Sorrow’s Furnace area, I farmed and helped out guildmates (and still do) earn their next levels. With the addition of SF, I was contented with helping the NPC’s in their quests deep inside the Furnace. It was fun, it was fresh, and it was like…….playing a game again. But within weeks, the “LFG SF Quests” or “LFG for Defend this or that” quickly changed to “LFG Farming – Tanks, Echo Nukers and Monks needed.”

You want to stop me from farming, GIVE ME SOMETHING TO DO! Let me become level 30, 40, 100. The cat-and-mouse game of squelching a particular build will continue. It will ultimately lead to increased difficulty of the game simply because we won’t be able to kill anything efficiently. Or at least damper farming until PEOPLE HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO DO! But now, by the time we finally will have something to do, we won’t be able to stop the enemies from sending us back to the outpost.

What Anet has done (and will continue to do) is simply kill the fresh, new player from having fun with a given build. They could have easily let the game go until the expansion (if one is even in the works). I would pay $35 to $50 to get that feeling I had when playing the game the first time through again. But now, I am going to be getting the feeling of a fresh new game by buying……a new game. Maybe $14.99 a month will buy some competent programmers that actually studied past MMORPG’s and provide their players with a compelling game world. I was going to buy a second copy of GW so I could have all the character types but who knows which build is going to be crushed and when, ending months of my (virtual) blood, sweat and tears questing, farming, and having fun building a character the WAY I WANT.

The graphics are good, the first time through story was good and the additions were refreshing, but now we are stuck with the way you (ANet) have led us…...bored and with seemingly useless character builds. And no, I don’t get into PvP because I would rather play BF2.

Thank you for reading this or at least parts of it. I will not recommend this game to anyone. And by the way…...I QUIT!!!

P.S. I know we can slow the enemy down and nuke, but it is going to take forever to kill the badies on the wings of the areas that are choke points in the game (ex. Thunderhead Keep when you breach the top wall half way through or Abbadon’s Mouth with Jaded Bows and Mursaat on the wings near the door with a Seal).

This game is not a MMORPG...it was never intended to be one and it never will be one. It's not conventional so I don't know why you expected conventional actions from ArenaNet. You probably are better off with WoW or some game like it...which isn't a bad thing, it's just readily apparent that Guild Wars(and any game that requires you to think rather than button smash) isn't for you.

all this change really did was point out the importance of positioning...if the nuker casts a fire storm and the mob runs into the tank(OMG we have to actually think about this shit now?) the tank is still tanking and the nuker is still nuking...it's against all theories of nature for the mob to stand there and get beat up on.

delfin42 · Nov 11, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loralai

I see your point but what I don't understand is what the big problem is with people whose profession of choice is straight fire. They paid their money like everyone else, they choose their skills from the same list that every other elemental gets, what's wrong with them choosing fire? So what if it's not highly creative, their money...their choice.

And they can STILL choose straight fire. They can set enemies on fire, they can make fire rain from the skies, they can torch anyone who dares to get close to them, and they can cast bursts of fire that char enemies who stand too close to each other.

They just can't rely any more on fire tactics that are based around blatantly braindead enemy AI. Now the enemies are only MOSTLY braindead and a bit more interested in self-preservation. This requires a change of tactics, not a change of profession.

I expect a future update to tweak fire skills a bit in ways that'll make AoE fire a little more useful, without buffing them to the point where they're the default choice for any Ele again. Tweaking Orion a bit and making more viable Fire alternatives available in early towns might help as well.

brokendaylite · Nov 11, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

so still no word from anet??? golly i hope they reverse this patch.